expectations saying he was going to turn the race upside down, it was going to be a barn burner. think that was a mistake? >> chris is his own man, he's got his own views. i think chris is right to the extent that it's a very important debate for -- more important debate for governor romney than it is for president obama. we know president obama. we either like him, don't like him or are in between. lot more people have to get to know governor romney so it's a more important debate. i think he has to be presidential. i think he has to convey the kind of person that people would be comfortable with as president. i tend to think we kind of score this as if it's a boxing match or basketball game. >> you know what it's like to debate mitt romney. i don't want to rehash any old wounds but i do want to play just some of the thing you guys got into and ask what he's like as a debater. >>overnor romney, was new york a sanctuary city? >> absolutely. called itself a sanctuary city. as a matter of fact, when the welfare reform act that president clinton brought forward said they were going